Every summer, we host The Agent Grad School, Summer Book Club. Here’s how it works. Our students pick the books one for June, one for July and one for August. And then we announced the book club choices to our inner circle members, our free inner circle members on the week of Memorial day. Then the book club, which is full of students. And I, we read the book for each month. And at the end of that month, we discuss what we learned from the book and how we are applying what we learned to our real estate businesses. And then we share that recording with you here. So feel free to read along with us all summer long. We’ve got still June and July left the book for July as atomic habits. The book for August is Never Split the Difference. And on today’s podcast, I’m sharing the June book club discussion for the book. This is marketing by Seth Godin, a book that every real estate agent should read, and it will truly redefine how you approach marketing your real estate business. So Listen in as the students and I, and the book club discuss the five parts of marketing that Seth talks about in this book and how this book has changed, the way that we think about what Marketing is, Listen in To kick us off my first question, just to start the conversation. And a lot of my questions, I’m like, let’s just see where this goes, because I’m so curious, your guys’ thought. So what did you think marketing was before reading this book? I used to think a lot of it was just getting recognition, like brand recognition. Anybody else we’ll talk about what we think it is now based on this book, but I’m curious like what you thought it was before reading this book. Like especially, you know, the way that the real estate industry teaches like so many places in the book, he was like, he even brought up real estate agents a couple of times, which I was like, perfect. So what did you think it was when you thought marketing? What’d you think? Oh, sorry, go ahead. So say, I thought marketing was just getting your name out there, but I also usually have questions about the difference between advertising and marketing and he did speak to some of that, but yeah, we’ll get into that one actually. Let’s we will talk about that. That’s on the list. So we’ll definitely talk about that. I used to feel like Marketing is kind of like manipulation tactics. Like it was icky. I don’t really feel that way now. Well, he says in one of his chapters, he says is marketing evil. Right. And he talks about how it could be and how it doesn’t have to be. And so I think that’s really interesting. And grace, that might be like, you know, for you, that might be like, oh, well, how do I just not be an evil marketer? The way that he’s, he describes the word evil, I’m using his word. Right. How I, and what was the word you used? Was it slimy? That was, was that the word? Yeah. Right. It’s like, how do I, maybe you learned how not to be an icky marketer through this book, Like literally caring so much about making a change. Right. And like really investing into that. And that had me really like, just thinking a whole lot on like, like what change do I seek to make? Like, I think of companies that I am invested in, you know, that have made a positive change and I’m like, wow. Like they really can stand behind what they’re saying, because they believe in it. And like in his example is Patagonia. I was like, I didn’t know all that about Patagonia. Like I want to buy Patagonia now, you know? So I thought that that was just really interesting to watch when you have conviction and what you’re really trying to create, how that makes a difference in the way you show up. And so that was cool. So that leads to perfect segue. Grace, thank you for that. What do you think Marketing is now? So I think you’ve mentioned it. So what now, after reading this book, what, how do you see Marketing? I feel like it’s helping me see that Marketing is showing people ways that I can help them solve a problem that they have. I love the, there’s a line in the book that says everybody has a problem. Right. And our job is to solve it. This book sounds like exactly right along the lines of everything that you’re teaching us, you know, niche down, niche down. It’s just exactly right along the lines. So I think the Marketing is just getting the message and I just keep reminding myself, bring this back to serving them. How can I solve their problem? How can I serve them? Not how can I impress them or, you know, just, or find, find, work out of their problem or just solve their problem, you know, build your reputation that way. Yeah. It’s funny Getting, how do you, how do you market that? How do you get people to know? And then it just goes right back to your system. Well, it’s funny, I’ve always reading this book. I was like, oh my God, you guys are going to think I read this book and created Asian grad school. I had that read this book. I was going to ask to be like, she must have based a lot of her stuff off of this. Cause it’s like in the first couple of chapters, he even has like a, it was probably even earlier on than that, but it was like the fill in the blank, like, you know, serve Blake. And this is the problem blank has. And like, I was like, oh, she must have read this before she, Yeah, no, it was funny. Especially with the smallest viable market, slap it by, as I was reading it, I’m listening to it. Also, whenever I learn something, I need to read it and I also need to hear it. So I have to do both. So it takes me a long time to get through content. And I, and I, as I was listening to it, I was like, oh God, they’re gonna think that, like I just fed them this whole book. But I thought what was interesting is what I kept saying to myself is now I hope that they’re convinced of what I’m telling them, like actually works because he’s literally like it works. So I was like, oh, maybe I don’t have to convince so much. So what else do you guys, whoever, maybe somebody who hasn’t answered now, what do you see marketing as grace? I thought you really, he kept saying like the change you seek to make would you mentioned which to me was like such a great way to think about marketing, like marketing. Isn’t about just getting your name out there. It’s about deciding what is the change and having the conviction. In fact, he has, I thought this was super interesting. These five, yeah. It’s five steps to marketing. Let me see if I can find it. Was that his version of the business plan or is that a different? So he did talk about that business plan, which I happy, like, go ahead and talk through it if you’re, but on, but on page 11. So earlier on the book, he talked about the five marketing and five steps and he said, the first step is to invent a thing, worth marketing with a story worth telling and a contribution worth talking about. Right. So the first thing is like deciding what it is that you want to, what is worthy of marketing, which I thought was so interesting. Right. I think so often, especially in real estate, but I think in so many industries, we think of marketing. It’s just like marketing yourself or just like getting the word out, right. Or just like starting to like, I have this thing. And so therefore I’m going to quote unquote market it. But first it’s taking a step back and saying, I have something worthy of it. And that becomes the first decision. I think so often we like think about marketing as like, let me try this thing to see if I’m worth it where he’s saying, get the worthiness first. Any thoughts on that? Especially as we’re shifting the market right now, for me, that what that meant was like, have the conviction first, then market it, make the first about what you have to say and the change you’re seeking, like actually going out and getting people exciting about it. Spread the word is step four where I think that so many of us start at step one with that. The thing that I find tricky about that, like, like sometimes I had a hard time paralleling into real estate only because so much of it was around product. And how does this thing that I’m creating, like play, play into that in the same way. And like, and like when he talked about the tension piece, I was like, Ooh, that’s, that’s really tricky because like, I am like a comfort. I avoid like tension and conflict. And so a line that really struck me was like, caring enough about the change that you’ll generously create tension on behalf of that change. Like, like recognizing that it’s literally the thing that’s going to make people make a choice, whatever choice they end up making. And I was like, man, so that takes like a lot of courage and conviction, like what we’re talking about, but how do we loop that kind of back to real estate? And like our niche I jumped in because I feel like race what you said with that tension piece, always like that reminded me of Jennifer and how she said, you know, how can we get people to make a change and set versus doing nothing at all? You know, that was kind of like, that reminded me of that piece. Yeah, exactly. So I think for like a good example would be, and I’m only using it because it’s what I’m so ingrained in my head. And there’s so many examples, but like, right, like you’re first time home buyers, like, especially in this market, like sometimes it’s easier just to keep doing what you’re doing. Right. It’s easier to decide that interest rates are too high or the market is too expensive. Right. But so the change you’re seeking to make is like, is that true or not? And for some people it is going to be right. And that’s where we give them that choice. And for other people, it’s like you, your job is to find the small, right? That’s that second step, the few people that will particularly benefit and care about the thing. Right. And it’s how it’s not for everybody. And so what your job is is to find those people who, despite the high interest rates right now, right. Despite you know, right. Prices rising, there are still people who would make sense to buy, to buy a house, your first house in this environment, they’re doing it every day. Right. I feel like we don’t have to create tension as much as I think a lot of marketers do because it’s just there naturally. I mean, I think, you know, a whopping 45 days ago, I had buyers not wanting to buy despite low interest rates because the prices were too high. And now that we’re starting to see prices come down, interest rates are too high. And so I’m like, okay. So I don’t think we’re ever going to find a time. Like, I think that they have the tension, we just kind of have to draw their attention to the fact that like, you know, there’s going to be tension on either side. And so, you know, the last thing that you want to do is miss out on growing equity in a home. If you’re, you know, I mean, if that’s what you’re, you’re kind of messages, but like working with first-time buyers, they’re like, well, I’ll never get my dream home because the prices are too high or now the prices are going down. The interest rates are too high, but just kind of showing them how, you know, despite what the prices are, the interest rates are. Here’s what the longterm usually looks like. I don’t know. I mean, that’s just one example, but I think, I think as far as like, we don’t necessarily have to create the tension and the conflict it’s already there, we just have to help them navigate it. Yeah. I think an example of creating tension versus not is actually talking about the problem itself. So a good example is as I was reading the book on tension with like, and I forget exactly where, but I remember thinking like, oh, this is, this is an example of how to create tension is like, you know how so many people make searching for a home? The thing to talk about, like, to me, that creates no tension, right? Because they could do that anywhere. Whereas the tension is like actually focusing on the problems like, Hey guys, interest rates are higher right now. What are we going to do about it? Right. To me that creates tension in that we’re talking about what the tension is. I think so often real estate agents avoid talking about the tension that they naturally have. Like you’re saying Lauren, there is already tension. Why are we not talking about it? Why is that not part of our marketing, you know, the tension versus search for houses and it’s a great time to buy. Or if you want to know, if you’ve decided to sell, call me, right. There’s a tension there, but yet they have. So recognizing the fact that they do have a problem that salt that’s, your job is to solve that there is tension that our job is to discuss. But I think that’s a great point. Lauren is like, there’s already enough tension. Just focus, just focus your marketing on it. So what did you guys think? So, so I think, especially in a changing market, right, the first step to invent the thing worth making is the story we’re telling in the contribution we’re talking about. That is where I think that conviction matters, right? Like regardless of this, whatever’s happening in the world. Cause by the way, like any market, there’s going to be a reason for people not to do the things. And so your job is to have the conviction, not because you’re trying to sell something, but because you truly believe something is worthy of an action being taken, right? Like there are still people that have to sell their house in a downmarket. There are still people who have to buy a house in a competitive buyers market. And then the second step is to find the few people, the few people I’m remembering that we don’t have to help everybody any more thoughts on that part, especially cause that’s step number two, before we start getting the word out there. Right. It’s who are we? Who is this for, that really resonated with me. I mean, so as I was reading through the smallest viable market, it was just like going off in my head because that’s who I’m looking for. I’m looking for like the weird old house people, you know, and I know they’re out there. I mean, they’re, they’re all over and it’s just about finding them and marketing to them because that’s my niche. That’s, that’s who I’m looking for. So it, it just was very validating to read that That was an, this is Carmen. That’s a big, hi. That was a big, big, big impact for me because I have been hearing for years. Oh. And find your niche. There’s riches in the niches that up, but the way he put it and the case studies that he put down really, really resonated with me and it really opened my eyes to the value of niches and it doesn’t have to be super big. Just, just need that. Right. Small group of people. And from there you can just build a big business. Yeah. I think he specifically said like a thousand people, right. And to me that’s so quantifiable and easy to like visualize and easy to, it still feels like a lot of people if you’re starting from zero. Right. But knowing that, like your goal, isn’t like an entire city, it’s 1000 people within that city and then asking yourself, is there a thousand people who would care about what I care about? You know? And then it becomes more attainable like, oh, I could find a thousand people who potentially want to buy a home one day in the near future or a thousand people who, you know, whose kids are growing up. It needs to move this year and move up. Anything else on that small, smallest viable audience. This is like step two in the five steps of marketing. I think that was, oh, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. Well, I was just wondering how like the Neil Philly acts kind of played into that, but if that might be slightly later, then we can kind of do that as well. I don’t know if it applies as much in the real estate as it does with like a product As the Neo faley acts the new people. Yeah. I’m, I’m one of them. I told them, they recognize myself in that audience of like, I love like the tension of it might work. It might not work, but then I get bored easy. And I want like the next thing that feels like the next progressive growth. And so I’m like, Ooh, like that was very reflective for me. And just recognizing that those people exist and I’ve bought so many courses, you know, and I don’t tend to even follow through with a lot. So I was like, wow, I’m one of them, you know, but I do talk about the things I love and share it in that way. So, but real estate is kind of like our client base is consistent. It’s not really the start of a product. Every person is kind of coming into us in a new way. So I was just curious about that with the Bible audience. Like, what’s the question I’m curious too, because like, what do you guys think? Like what, like, are you saying, like, how do the Neo feeling act the new people, how do they fit into the smallest viable audience? Is that what you’re saying? Just in the sense of like, I guess you could kind of look at it as like a new agent or group who becomes our first supporters that then spreads the word. Right. And how do we like access them? So that then the people that need the greater consistency and they need the proven track record and they need all of that stability to then trust in us, you know? Cause a lot, some people are not going to trust in the new person that doesn’t have a lot of reviews or things. So we kind of need those people that are willing to take the risk on us because we might have some fresh ideas or we’re just really speaking to them in that way. Anybody else have anything to add on that? I kind of felt called out when he was talking about neophilia box. Cause it was like, I feel like, I mean in the six years that I’ve been doing this, I’ve gone back and forth between like, oh, I wanna work with investors. Oh, I want to work with luxury. Oh, I want to work with like, and it took, I think, you know, I finally had landed on wanting to work with teachers, but I felt like that wasn’t a, it was a small but not viable audience. And so I’m trying to, you know, for sake, my neophilia act tendencies and just sort of focus on one, one small viable audience. So yeah, that was my, I kind of took it as, instead of talking about like the people in marketing too. It was like, I felt called out a little When I was thinking about the Neo failure acts. I was thinking about like my cousin years ago when iPods first came out, like the really huge one and he bought one and I was like, why would you, why would you need that? Like, who needs that? But he bought everything that was new and current, you know, like the, the latest technology. And I was always the one that was like years behind. And so when I think about that with kind of real estate too, I think of people that might like the traditional way of doing things. And then those that might like a more modern new approach. And I was talking to an agent in my office who has been doing this for 20 plus years. And she, the other day was saying how she didn’t have any listings for the first time like ever. And I was like, why? She’s like, cause all these new people are coming in and I’m not sure, is it because it’s a new way that they’re doing things or, you know, she’s a traditional way. Or, you know, maybe it’s attached to that too. That’s a great point, Sherry, like in one respect the new agents, the whole idea of the neophilia acts. There’s a, there’s a, there’s an avenue for new agents to try new things and attract people in a new way. So it could be a marketing strategy in that try this new way because especially in real estate, right, we have this whole, very old school traditional way that I think the public sees us as operating. Right. And so what an amazing opportunity to, to attract those new Neo feely acts. And I think that there are disruptors in the are, you know, business, like I buyers for example, right. Or that, or, you know, online leads like those are the people. And so those organizations, those companies are attracting the people who are interested in trying something new, a new way of doing it. And so I think that’s a really great point of like, it creates an opening to say, we’re not doing it this way. We’re doing it this way. And if you’re, if you’re, if you want a new way of doing it, which obviously there’s a market for come here. Yeah. But something grace, you said reminded me of a part in the, in a later in the book where he says, you know, you have to remember that you are the most important person that you market to. Do you remember that? And that you should not change your strategy. And so like not when you’re sick of it, not when you know your, your people around you are sick of it, but when your accountant is sick of it, right. When it’s made you so much money, right. And then it’s proven to work. And so my hope is that that part of the, you know, you don’t want to necessarily in your own business be the neophilia the question is where are you? Are you attracting the neophilia box by saying there’s this new way of doing things and knowing the difference, right? Like don’t be a new affiliate in your business. Okay. Anything else on that? Lauren? I thought you brought up a great point. It’s not just, oftentimes when we talk about niching, we think about like the small, but I loved how he added the word viable. Right. And so that’s why we’re always like, is there a match, you know, sometimes in class I’ll say, is there a match, like how many people have bought and sold in that neighborhood that you’re trying to write? Like, is there enough movement, do you think you can attract enough people to have the turnover that you’re looking for? And so I thought that adding that word viable was a really helpful, Yeah, I did it for me, for sure. I feel like other coaches that I’ve had in the past have been like think smaller things, smaller things smaller. And I got so small that I was like, I don’t, I don’t have any, like, I can’t reach anybody because there’s just nobody out there, you know? So that was, I don’t know. That was kind of, it was just needed for me. Yeah. Isn’t it amazing how I, you know, I always say like little tiny hinges, swing, big doors, just the word viable, opened up all that for you. All right. I mean, honestly, we could spend a whole day about just talking about that topic, but let’s move to step three. The third step is to tell your story, to tell a story that matches the built-in narrative and dreams of that tiny group of people, the smallest viable market. So you know how we talk about an agent grad school. First, you need to decide who you’re talking to. And then we talk about the why this is, I think, where that Y fits in is about your story and then making sure that it connects with your who, I don’t know. What are your guys’ thoughts on this? Tell a story that matches the built in narrative and dreams of that tiny group of people, the small, smallest Bible audit audience. What did you guys think of that section of marketing? By the way, we haven’t even gotten to telling people about anything. We haven’t even actually gotten to marketing we’re on step three. It, Jen, what page are we on? I’m having to go off my phone. Oh, that’s okay. So I’m just looking at page 11. Oh, still? Yeah, just going through the five steps. Okay. Thank you. Because even though I wish that he kind of organized the book by the five steps and then talked about, but he kind of did, but he just didn’t inadvertently say it, you know, but the point I’m trying to make, by going through these five steps, it’s like, we haven’t even gotten to what we traditionally, like so many people are like, I want to do marketing and it’s like, let’s do a Facebook ad. Right? Wait, we’re going to talk, talk about all this stuff before, which is what we focus on here. Right? Like that’s not going to work until you figure out steps. One, two, and three did step three meets. You make, you feel like you could think of a story that resonated and that like, why that’s so powerful, like Abby, you’re shaking your head. And it was a whole concept of the people like us do things like this. And again, it’s like telling that story for me of, you know, this is how I came to love older homes. This is why I feel so passionately about, you know, educating others about them and helping others get into their first older home and teaching about restoration, all of these things, they’re all connected. And I think this was another piece of it was this isn’t for everyone and that’s okay. And that, so those two pieces for me were just like light bulb moments of, yeah, I it’s, it’s about finding that little, the us and everybody else, if you don’t get it. That’s cool. It’s all good. And how powerful that is and magnetic. Sorry Terry, go ahead. Yeah. I was going to just say like, I’m on page 78. Wait. Yeah. When he’s talking about like, what do people want and how he’s saying, you know, about the feeling status and connection and to watch people and figure out what they dream about and then create a transaction that delivers that feeling. So that I thought was also part of the, you know, part of the whole meeting, their dreams, like trying to figure out what is it that they really want and then meeting them there. And this goes back to, you know, what you always say is like, how are we going to do that Through the story? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don’t know if I was really connecting it to the story. I just kept thinking about it was about the feelings and how do we get them to have that feeling? I don’t know. I didn’t kind of story piece, but I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, I, so I just wanna preface by saying I finished the book, but I did get to a part of it, but the story part did resonate with me. And I almost thought about it as like an origin story. Like if you think like a superhero, if you will. And that for me, at least in real estate has driven into like this, right? So my niches for some home buyers were still renting who shouldn’t be. They have way too much money in the bank. And, and for me it resonated in this whole, like, you know, I was still renting and I was a renter forever. And after I got into real estate, I realized how investments money works and how the educationally, we’re not really taught that. And how I calculated that. I think I’ve, I’ve put in, I’ve helped someone else pay their mortgage. It’s almost $650,000. And during the pandemic, I could have really used that. And, and how, you know, I would have made very different decisions. Had I known that and for anyone that I’m speaking to anyone taken care of, I want to make sure that they avoid that mistake. And so for me, like that resonated just the, the, the story, the reason why I’m passionate about making sure that you’re building wealth, as soon as you, you know, I get a hold of you or you’re thinking about it in that way, and this is why this is why it’s important. Yeah. And again, how magnetic and powerful and like, it creates that like, here’s why I’m doing this. Here’s why I’m telling you should, you should do it too. I think mean I’m going to make a statement here that may scare some people who hear it. But I think without a powerful story, it’s very difficult to sell anything slash market. I just think that there’s a connection that’s missing. And so I think that until before we start getting the word out there and spreading the word, and then of course the last step of that is often overlooked or we’re going to talk a lot about is that regular consistent showing up. I think that you can talk, you can figure out what your conviction is. I think that you can find who you want to work with, but if there’s not a story there about like, why there’s a connection missing that people aren’t going to, it’s not going to make sense. And so did correct me if I’m wrong. You have not yet bought a house, right? No. And I feel like, I mean, I’m jumping ahead, but in a few years when I have, and I have a portfolio of assets, it will be almost more powerful story, but in the meantime, it’s something that’s driving me. And, and then I’m excited to learn more about and, and spread the word on. And it’s kind of something that even on a slumpy day when I don’t feel like doing something like the thought of that future and helping other people find that is, I dunno, kept gets kind of neat going if that makes any sense. I love that. Yeah. Go ahead. And then I’ll, I’ll jump in after you. I was just going to say, I love how this kind of ties to my, you probably didn’t get there because it’s the last chapter, the most important person to market to is yourself and how you’re using your own story to market, to yourself to keep working. Totally. Kathleen. I had to step out for a minute for a call too. So I’m back. But I think does the story need to be about how we can relate to our clients? Like I know what you’re going through. I’ve been there. This is my story. And this is how I can help you. And the reason I’m asking is because I’m, my niche is helping people moving who are not living in Arizona. So I haven’t done that. I haven’t, I’ve always been in Arizona so that my angle was sort of that I, I knew a lot about Arizona and I know a lot about the other areas. So did I miss the point? No, I don’t think so. I think grace said earlier about like Patagonia and their story, right? Their story is, I won’t remember it perfectly, but like their story was something about like, you know, saving the earth and how their clothes don’t like, I don’t know, add to the pollution of the earth and there’s no motorized. And like, you know, another pro like your story could be, or the story could be something about how you love Phoenix, that you’ve lived here your whole life. You don’t believe that there’s any better place to live. Right. So it doesn’t, I don’t think when you guys speak up here, but I don’t think it has to be like, I’ve been where you are, but still you’re creating a story about why, what you, what you are going back to the first step. Why the thing that is worthy of your conviction, why you have it, what is that story? Any other thoughts on that piece? The story piece. I agree with that. And I think, I almost feel like you just need to be really passionate about it. Like, I think there’s a phrase that kept saying, like, you need to obsess over it. Like, it’s something that you, you, you like, you’re so obsessed over where you live or you’re so obsessed about making sure that other people are understand wealth building or whatever, whatever it is. Like there needs to be an obsession that keeps driving you and attracts those people. Yeah. I love that word. That makes Sense. Yeah. So I’m kind of thinking then about, cause it says the story matches the narrative and dreams of the people. Right. Well, so then I guess this kind of goes back to what Kathleen was asking too, because if we’re trying to figure out what their dreams are and then create, or have the story that matches that, right. Are those, is that a little bit different than our, our reach? Are we creating like a story that just matches, I guess I’m confused on what the story is telling. Is it our own story that we’re trying to just match with the group of people that, you know, we can work with? Or is it their story that we have a story that matches their story? It sounds like the second one. Yeah. I mean, from what I read, it says, you know, a story is to tell a story that matches the built-in narrative and dreams of that tiny group of people. So a good example would be like, at least what I thought of when I was thinking through the multiple places in the book where he talks about this piece is a perfect example, is like people don’t buy houses to buy houses. Right. They buy houses because of something they want out of it. Right. They want a beautiful backyard because they want their kids to have a place to play. Right. Or, you know, more. And do you have something to add on this topic? Well, just with what Sherry was saying, like, I feel like it can, it could be both like it just depending on your situation, but I feel like one of the things that Jennifer talks about is like, once we identify our audience, it’s like thinking about what they want and like making it like what you were just saying essentially. But I think, you know, when I identified my audience, it was more of like, like I look back at who I was back in 2009 in the last recession when I bought my first house. And that’s, you know, that’s, I can draw from those experiences, but you don’t necessarily have to like, that’s the story that I’m going to be talking about because I think that a lot of first time home buyers right now can relate to that. But I think really we just have to identify who our audience is and then make a story off of what they want in a home or what they want, like why they want to sell. Like, it, it kinda goes back to like our listing presentations or initial consultations of like, just getting to the bottom of the why, and kind of creating the story around the wife where our ideal clients. Yeah. I have something to add on that. Cause it, it kind of struck me a quote I saved was the way you see the world. Isn’t really as important as a worldview of those you seek to serve. And the example that it gave was that guy that like took over JC penny and he just totally hit the mark of what those people actually enjoyed and wanted. And I think it might be easiest. Like for me, like the people I’m dreaming up are like, people like me because I feel like that’s who I want to help because those are the people I want to spend time with. You know, I have to decide if that’s viable. So, but you know, so, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the people that we are choosing to serve are like us. And so that’s kind of the thing we just have to like, okay, Abby, and what do you have to add? Oh, hold on. I think just to kind of take off of what grace was saying too. So like sometimes what might seem like the most natural niche is not always going to be the thing that you’re not going to be where your story is or where you connect with people. So like for me with medicine, like that would logistically seem like the natural, the natural fit for me. But I keep hearing, I kept hearing as I was reading this, what you say about being in alignment and, and that was for me a big connection there, because if you’re not aligned, then I feel like people, they can kind of sniff that out. Like it comes across as inauthentic almost. Yeah. Anything else on this story piece? Yeah. This is Carmen for me. I liked that example. He gave about finding the drill pit, the drill bit all too. So you can make a shelf and you can clean your room and you have satisfaction. Like I think this story, cause when I read the story, I thought of two things finding out from the people, you know, from your people, what their ultimate goal is to enrich their lives. Right. And then the other aspect of story I thought of when you had said in, in other coaching sessions about success stories, putting down success, stories of your past clients so that they can see maybe they can relate to those stories to help. So you can so they can see how they can help you. Is what I thought when I read about the story. Yeah. That drills, that was a great one to bring up. I think that illustrates it perfectly Carmen. And hopefully this will help you. I’m a little bit Sherry, right? It’s like, people don’t want to buy a drill. They want to buy the thing that the drill can do for them. And what that is is they don’t even want the hole. Right. They want the organization that, that putting the shelf right. Can give them. And so that would be the store and example of a story that you could discuss, right? It’s like not talking about the benefits of buying this drill, but what does that drill give you? And that becomes the story of the dreams. What did he say? And the narrative of that smallest viable audience. W how about we talk about finally, what we all think of Marketing is spreading the word. I think that’s where we can get into that conversation about how advertising is different and branding’s different than marketing. But what I, I don’t, I know I keep making the same point over and over again, but like, what I really want people to hear from this is marketing does not start with spreading the word Marketing. That’s step four in a good marketing campaign. And if you don’t do steps, one, two, and three first, I think he even says like the Facebook ads, none of that’s gonna work. And this is also where he got into that strategy versus tactics, which again, like I did a podcast about that two weeks ago, I had, I had read this book, but it’s true. Right? Facebook ads is a tactic. The strategy is knowing steps one, two, and three that we just stuck. We just talked about and applying it to the tactic of Facebook ads. So I don’t know, where do you want to start with this spreading the word piece? Cause I feel like there’s so many different places we could go where it, I feel like starting with the permission marketing part would be awesome because like I was like, oh my gosh, this is like Jennifer with the emails. Like, you know, email is like where it’s at, you know, because people are actively giving you the permission, you’ve engaged them or connected with them enough that they actually want to hear from you. And they would miss you if you were gone. And it’s like, okay, like that was just helping me expand so much more into like that value piece. And like, what are the people that I’m imagining? What content would they really like? And like going into that piece of like, it’s not going to be for like 95% of people and that’s okay. And like, I can be bold and I can align more with like literally talking to the people that are going to appreciate where I’m coming from, which might even be like a little blue sometimes. But I’m like, but that’ll be like me really being authentic and they’ll see it and recognize it and appreciate it, you know? So yeah. I love that Permission marketing piece. Yeah. Which for those of you who maybe haven’t read it yet, or don’t remember that part is about essentially what we were talking about with those opt-ins and asking people if they want to join your newsletter, right. And then giving them information that then spreads the word about you and your services and how you can help solve their problem. What about how he talked about the difference between advertising, branding and marketing, curious, your thoughts on that and what you guys took away from that? I think this is the part where, let me see if I can find it. The part where he actually talks about real estate data. Isn’t it. I was going to say if you have a page number, because some of the stuff isn’t So 82 it’s no one is happy to call a real estate broker, right? Not really just fighting with the broker is hoping this isn’t often a joyous interaction. They’re afraid they’re nervous, they’re relieved. They’re eager to get going. Here’s what I’d ask a broker seeking better. How will you choose to show up in the world? Will you reassure and Sue, will you probe and explore? Will you claim that you’re better, faster or more caring? And that’s again about that drill bit too. I guess that’s a story. But I think later he talks about, he talks about, you know, you could do what everybody else is doing right. And how you could, you know, spam people and, and all that stuff. But how it’s different than how marketing is really different than doing advertising or branding. And I think oftentimes in real estate, we, we, when we think of marketing, I think oftentimes we think of what those big companies do for branding. Right. And how, if you’re really talking to that smallest, like he even brings up that example of Coca-Cola right. And how you just keep spreading, like spreading the message of happy, right. And Coke makes you happy. And the content of that can always change, right. Or you could run a Facebook ad, even talks about how online ads. I think he said specifically online ads are like the least efficient way to market yourself. Did you guys see that? That’s also why we don’t talk about it here because it doesn’t matter unless you can get the strategy piece done first. So my hope is that in this step four, that you really see the difference between like marketing strategy versus tactics. Anything else you want to talk about with this one and spreading the word, how you spread the word, Jen? Yeah. I don’t know this was part of it, but one of the things that I kinda got regarding this sort of this piece was that, and this is more social media oriented is really just being intentional with like, when you’re putting something out. But I think sometimes we just put content to put content Is being like, like, who am I trying to address? What am I trying to address? And like, you know what I mean? And if that’s like, I don’t know, for example, like if you’re putting something that’s, that’s just sort of showy to be showy or just, you know what I mean? Like I think it’s like, and that’s fine if that’s, what if that’s what your intention is. But I think for me it kind of resonated like, oh, like when I start putting things like who like, who, like, who’s like maybe getting engagement from it, but is it the right engagement or is this leading to sales or, you know what I mean, to real estate engagement? Like, what is it really doing? So for me, it brings up like specifically in the social media side. Like I really want to be more intentional though, when I put something who like, who am I really trying to reach? And what am I really trying to say? And what do you want them to do? Don’t forget that piece. Because he talked specifically, he says, brand marketing makes magic, direct marketing, which is telling people to do something, makes the phone ring. Right? So what we do here is direct response marketing, right? Put something out there for a purpose, making sure you know, who you’re talking to that smallest viable audience, and then asking them to do something that is the difference between branding and direct marketing so that they take an action, which is towards you. Yeah. We just, we, we just had last week at our brokerage, this digital marketing camp and they had Jason Pantana, I don’t know if you know, Jason Pantana would, he’s like a Tom ferry guy, come, come in to do this little workshop, I guess, if you want to call it that. And he just kept talking over and over and over again to like bringing up these examples of this, person’s doing this number of videos on Tik TOK and getting this number of views of blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m watching it. And all I’m thinking is we had talked about this several weeks ago, Jennifer, and you were like, the only statistic that I care about is like, what is the conversion then into actual customers? And that’s what I kept thinking in my head is like, I don’t give a, how many tens of thousands of views this person is getting, like how many customers are they getting from it? And it’s interesting. Cause it doesn’t seem like most people track that. I don’t know. I think even in the book he says, you don’t care about likes. And I was like, you don’t care about followers. I was like, what I care about is how many people are you belly to belly with who are becoming your clients? Like, so why don’t you go viral on Tik TOK? Did you make money out of it? Did you get clients? Did you change a life? Right? This is the chat. This is the section. Also he talks about the funnel. What’d you guys think about that funnel conversation? I have a quick question about like edging into the funnel, but also like direct versus brand. Like how do we find that balance to that? Because like, you know, he said with the brand like be consistent, you know, like say there’s a company you like, like the way that they ship it and when you get it, the packing peanuts they use, like it’s all in coherence. And so it’s like, if we’re saying we’re a certain thing, then we can’t like show up in a way that is like, not in alignment with that, because then it shows that incongruity. And so I’m like how much of our like brand do we kind of need to like focus on as well as the direct marketing piece? Yeah. So the way I looked at it was like, branding are things like the consistency for which you show up and the Damar direct marketing is like how you get people to take action. Right. So, and also I felt like my other thought on that same note was like, branding is marketing doesn’t end when you get a client it’s branding and marketing happens throughout each stage in the transaction also. Right. So it’s really saying like, and I think it also goes back to people like us do things like this. Right? So it’s like people like us example, if you’re a student, The Agent Grad School, you’re always one step ahead of your clients. Right. You’re S you’re S during the under contract phase, right. Every single week on Monday and Friday, you’re sending them an update. Cause you know exactly what to do to me. That’s branding because that’s, I show up and I make sure my clients always know what’s happening and I do it consistently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And like closing gift kind of like going in with What You’re saying and all of that. Yeah. And that just makes you have to be so much more intentional the whole, whole way through. And so it’s kind of like, that’s the part I sort of keep getting hung up on and kind of like what Lauren was saying just about jumping. Oh well, and Buster, like I had a whole investor period too, where I was like, I want to work with a mother and I’ve jumped around so many times and it’s like, I really have to commit to something and show up a hundred thousand percent for it, at least for a certain stent to determine if it’s viable or not. And kind of go all in on that and, and have everything sort of reflect that. But I don’t want to get like decision paralysis either or like perfection paralysis and then just be like, okay, you can build it layer by layer. You know, it’s better to start and then gradually hone in on your consistency and stuff as you go. Right. Well, that consistency is the last step, which think is perfect. Right? And so this is again where we can’t be consistent unless we know what, like, what you’re talking about is really step one and vent the thing worth making and the right, like in our world, it’s not a product, a physical product. It’s an idea, right? Like who do we want to help? And how do we want to help them? But that is the thing it’s like getting that conviction, getting that clarity. Right. And you can’t show up consistently. There is no consistency, which is step five, unless we’ve gotten step one down. Right. And I think so often we try to be consistent before we’re ready to be consistent. But knowing that consistency becomes layer five And Alan, just the intention piece, it’s like, otherwise we’re just throwing stuff out there. And like what Jeff was talking about of like posting just to post and is this even really? And so then like into the funnel piece, it’s like, yeah, that was really enlightening because it’s like so many people, I think they said with the advertising and stuff, they didn’t even track funneling. The internet, brought it up to 60% of actually being able to track, but tons of people don’t and then it gets so discouraged and online ads literally don’t even end up paying for themselves most of the time. And I was like, Ooh, that’s not very reassuring. You know? So then it’s like, how do we actually, if we’re not going to do online ads and stuff like that, then like our marketing pieces, where is that? Since we’re not using ads, like is where do we market? Is that like mostly with our email? Well, it’s about showing up where your smallest viable audiences that’s where, so, so it may be that maybe Facebook ads, right? Like he kind of could, I thought I might take away what’s he kind of contradicted himself because in one place he was like, they’re the most inefficient, but then it kind of started talking like why they were good in a funnel. So I was like, which side are we on set? But I think the point, at least the point I decided to make on that topic was like, oh, they work. If you do the first five steps, like you, it works. If you do all steps, it doesn’t work. If you just kind of throw it out. Right. But on the funnel piece, the part that I’m hoping that you guys maybe hopefully took away from that, it’s not, it’s not about just the top of the funnel. It’s about everything that happens afterwards and then expecting there to be attrition. I think he gave an example. I forgot exactly who the example was, but he talked about how many leads. He was like 10,000 leads get in and like six people become clients and it’s worth it. And so knowing that that is natural attrition and it’s a good thing. I think so often we like send one thing out and then people on subscribe and we get all bent, right? No need. That’s part of having a funnel, which is what we built here. And so just expecting that and your job is to keep filling the right people at the top, let them not filter themselves out and decide naturally who’s going to move forward to be your client. But that is how it works. And yeah, Doesn’t the fun, like the funnel connect branding to direct action. Like that connection piece. That’s the way I, and they’re very effective. That’s what I do. Yeah. Talk more about that. I think that’s a great point. I hadn’t thought of, can you say more? Yeah. I mean, with the, like with the funnel at the top of the funnel, right? Why aren’t you just, just kind of like spreading the word about your brand and then you co and then the people come into the funnel and it narrows it down at the bottom. You end up with your people. Exactly. Yeah. It connects the funnel, connects the brands to the, to your people, to the direct and then a call to action. Yeah. And your conversion and, and all that. Yeah. It’s like the funnels you’re saying like the funnels where it all happens. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a connection piece. And then being consistent, right. Step five, like you keep consistently through your funnel. You’re being con is a form of that by Exactly. You Kia showing up. Yeah. So let’s move on to step five. Now. Great segue to the last step is often overlooked. And I think in our real estate industry, this is where most people are like, if you’re, if you’re ready to get in the car, I’m ready too. But we forget about what we call the crockpots show up regularly, consistently and generously for years and years, to organize and lead and build confidence in the change you seek to make. And I cannot stress this enough in times like these, this becomes the separator between the people who will make it, the real estate agents who will grow their businesses and the ones who decide it’s not for me, this is the place. Any thoughts on this step five? The one thing I was worried about as he often talks about how many years it takes to kind of get that. I don’t know what the right word is, results that you’re hoping for. And I was like, I hope this doesn’t discourage people, but also it’s how it works. Curious your thoughts on that time. For me, it’s almost been a liberating cause when I decided, okay, I don’t have to just be crazy successful my first year. And it doesn’t mean that it’s not for me, you know, like I think I went into it with that expectation of like, this has to work now or it doesn’t work period. And it’s like, no, like my, my YouTube channel for myself, it’s like, I’ve had it three years. I didn’t even do anything, but it’s constantly growing. And I’m like, wow. Like the reason why that’s growing is because it’s been there so long, you know? And like, so the same thing can be true for real estate. It’s like, I don’t have to have overnight success. And even if other agents aren’t, that’s okay, like I’m here for the long haul and I’m just going to keep showing up. And like, if I just serve 10 people a year, like that’s probably good enough for me to like have a living, you know, it’s like, it doesn’t have to be 20 or 50. And so it’s like, that creates so much more spaciousness. And then over time, it’ll just grow more. So it kind of just created more spaciousness for me instead of anxiety, like curbs, the anxiety. And no, I was just going to say, I think we’d see a lot less people leave in the first year if they had a more realistic expectation of what it was going to look like. Because I mean, I don’t, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect to start your own business and just be for some people that will happen. Some people it will happen, but for many of us, it is just going to be like grace said, like this process of showing up every day and just doing the work. And that’s, that’s a much more realistic expectation, but it’s not what is sold to you when you start in real estate at all. Yeah. And this is the fundamental thing that like, I’m trying to change about the industry and trying to get people to understand, because I see so often, especially right now, what’s happening is people are convincing themselves. This isn’t the place for them, this isn’t. And I’m like, you have no clue. You haven’t done the work you haven’t showed up. And for some people it’s sure it’s the right choice, but failure, or it taking longer than you thought is not a worthy reason. And so my hope is that you guys, I was like, this is either going to make them super depressed or hopefully get them to calm down this whole. How, if you’re here for the long haul, long haul and the years, it takes up consistent marketing and consistent showing up and consistently doing the first four steps to see those results. And I think that leads me to the two last chapters in the book, which I love so much. First is marketing works. And now it’s your turn and having some ownership and responsibility and I, and this is the place where he talks about it’s not going to work right away. Right. And to expect it not to work all the time and how that’s part of the process and then last but not least, cause I’m trying to keep it to close to an hour is marketing to the most important person. And so those last two chapters, I felt like really pointed the finger at us, which is where marketing begins and ends and where our success begins and ends and how we are the agents, not just real estate agents, but the agents of change that we’re seeking to make. And the first person that we have to convince of our worthiness and our ability to do this is ourselves. Any thoughts on that? And as we close this book, I feel like that actually matches with the last step also and building confidence, you know, that we are organizing and leading and building confidence in the change we seek to make. So I think that also goes with the mindfulness work we’ve been doing this month too in last month. Yeah. Building confidence for your clients. Like how are your clients going to have competence unless you have confidence first, right? Like if you’re wishy-washy about whether it’s a good time to buy yourself, why would you, why, how could you possibly build confidence in your clients? But knowing that that’s part of your marketing, it’s building that confidence on behalf of your clients and the first person you have to build that confidence for is you. It is the marketing we do for ourselves to ourselves, by ourselves. The story we tell ourselves that can change everything. And this is the last paragraph in the book. It’s, what’s going to enable you to create value, to be missed if you were gone. And his H how he ends the, I don’t know if any of you guys listened to it. I listened to it. And his last parting word of the book was now go make a ruckus. And I loved that, but it’s not here in the written form. And so my closing question to you, each of you is how are you going to make a ruckus with your marketing and in your real estate business? Anybody? Yeah. How about not being afraid to make a ruckus? How about not being afraid to be a disruptor? How about not being willing to do what everybody else is doing and being, being willing to stand out from the crowd, knowing that not everyone’s gonna like you, knowing that not everyone is going to want to work with you. So I’ll ask one more time. How are you going to create a ruckus? I’ll go first. This is a little secret. I am changing who we help here at Asian grad school. And I am going to be picky, a lot more pickier so that people who are like, who are on this call, every single student and agent grad school, it shows up, we have 200 students right now. And 10 people are here. I want to help less people do more things. I want to help the people who have a conviction about wanting to weather the shift in the market for the long haul. I do not want anybody to work with. I’m not going to commit to anybody. Who’s not willing to commit to their own success. And so there will be an application process. There’ll be a very specific criteria for whether or not you get in here. That is how I’m making a ruckus. I don’t want to be everything to everybody. I don’t want people who want to tip their toe in. I want people who are willing to commit to doing this, this job better and willing to make the change. This book, reading this book for me, made that like it had been in my head and I was like, nah, I don’t know. People are going to get mad at me on changing things. Oh, you can’t join monthly anymore. Now, just so you know, your students I’ll honor what you’ve got, but new people coming in there will be a huge change on how we interact. It’s not for everybody. And that’s okay. That’s my ruckus. What’s yours. I have a, it’s not specifically related to marketing, but it’s, it’s something that I’ve been thinking about a lot this week. So as I’ve been working with these clients who I have, I have found some challenges. I have been putting boundaries in place kind of as you’ve talked about and that being okay. And I’ve been talking with some other agents in my office about that and the amount of like, oh my God, you’re telling them no, you’re telling them you’re not going to go see every single property with you just have to go. If they want to see a house, you have to go show it to them. And it has been a very interesting, so I guess that for me is right now, kind of the ruckus, if you want to call it, that is yeah. That I’m not, I’m not going to be everything to everyone. And it’s what it is. Love it. Isn’t it funny how just creating boundaries for your own sanity and your own like self care is causing a ruckus in your office. I think that’s so like what other businesses that okay. You know, and it’s not coming. It’s, it’s interesting because it’s not coming from any of the other agents who are around my age or have young children or how it’s coming from the agents who have been doing this for decades, who are like, they find it almost defensive. I think that like, oh, you’re not committed or you’re not, you know, whatever. And it’s just like, I, I said to one of them, I’m like, if that is how it had to be, like, if I truly just had to, every second they called me, I have to drop everything I’m doing to go show them a house. Like, I, I couldn’t do it for 30 years, which is what I want to do. I want to do this for the next 30 years. And there’s no way I’ll be able to do that. I already burned out on one career. Like I’m not, I’m not trying to do that again. Amazing. Yeah. And I think if we all did that, like imagine if we all had the conviction to create boundaries with our life and for our businesses so that we can have both a successful life and a successful business, how much that would increase the way that the public sees us. Right. There’s a reason why surgeons have a much higher like view than real estate agents, because they have boundaries and they’re solving people’s problems. Right. So how about we take that approach? Right. And I think he talks a lot about being a commodity in here. Right? So if you’re going to just drop everything and show houses, and that’s your value proposition, your commodity, someone else can do it faster. Someone else can show that house sooner. Right? Love it. Anybody else want to share their rockets? My ruck is that I was imagining is bringing a visionary aspect into like the home searching. And so I was imagining like giving clients like a magazine and having them do some vision boarding, like before they start, and then I can see that and they can bring it with them. And then just be like, is this matching what you were feeling? And like, let’s really commit to that. And like, and kind of getting more of like that multi-dimensional layer. So it’s not all just like living up here. It’s like in the heart. And it’s like in the quiet tude and, you know, kind of having them be an active participant in their home search in that way. It’s not just like scrolling on Zillow. That’s not like, look at this house, look at this house. It’s like, no, like let’s sit and like almost visualize. So that’s kinda what I’m imagining. I love that because what you’re essentially doing is you’re saying like, rather than look outside to solve your problem, like, what is it you want? And then it’s so easy once you know exactly what you want, why you want it. And like, it’s so easy to find the outside thing that matches the scrolling is less anxiety ridden because you’re like, is that it? Is that it? Is that it versus Nope. Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. Yes. There we go. Right. Awesome. Well, listen, I hope all of you create a ruckus in your business and your areas for yourselves. Don’t be afraid to cause a ruckus cause a ruckus is what gets people attracted to you and it helps you stand out of the crowd. So anything else anybody wants to add about this book? I mean, I feel like we could talk for days, but It’s such a great book. I’m going to listen to it again, but it is good. I mean, he’s, he’s, he’s great. Anyway, I just wanted to add this one thing. His definition of marketing it’s early on in the book, it’s Marketing is a generous act of helping others become who they seek to become. I like that. Yeah. I like that too. Say it one more time, Carmen. It sounds like you’re at the page. Marketing is the generous act of helping others become who they seek to become. What is that? Well, I have the electronic version. So it’s a chapter. If in chapter one on your marketing, doesn’t have to be selfish, heading subheading. It’s Page six. Okay. Well that’s good. It says marketing does not have to be selfish. In fact, the best marketing never is Marketing is the generous act of helping others become who they seek to become and involves creating honest stories, stories that resonate and spread marketers, offer, offer solutions, opportunities for humans to solve their problems and move forward. The other kind of marketing, the hype, the scans and the pressure thrives on selfishness. I know it doesn’t work in the wrong one in the long run and that you can do better than that. We all can. Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for discussing. Our next book is what is our next book? Help me help me atomic habits. Oh, I can’t wait for that One. Atomic habits. And the discussion for that one is July 25th. Same time, same place. Great, great, great book. So Lauren is going to be spearheading that conversation and then August we have never split the difference and Monique will be spearheading that conversation. So see you guys then and see tomorrow initial consultation practice. Come ready? Thanks everybody. Bye Bye.